Thomas Lang owns all y'all

Brilliant Rob. Well put my friend.
I saw that DVD and picked up one or two good chop exercises.
Over all I'm with you. I'd rather listen to Jimmy Cobb swing on Kind Blue than Virgil and Thomas both wanking together on a clinic stage. Not to say that Virgil and Thomas are not great drummers, just not great musicians(in my opinion). Drummers that do tour after tour, play on many CDs, and have something individual to say within the music are musicians. That's why Vinnie Colaiuta is brilliant. He does it all really well and always plays music, even when he overplays. Everytime I hear a Vinnie clone they've copped the Chaffee groupings and the hand technique, but not the feel or the musicality. That's why they don't have gigs.

I'd rather hear Shawn Pelton groove his butt off on the opening theme to SNL, or Steve Jordan play 2 and 4 with Keith Richards.
Don't get down on the room. There are pros in here as well.
You just don't see us blabbing everyday because we're busy playing instead of talking.

thanks SDK I'm glad you have ears. Digi, you're right. But I thought I was in a room where we can talk music on a high level to make a comparison. Picasso, Van Gogh, even Jackson Pollack.
Elvin, Dejohnette, Erskine. Ya know?

These clinic drummers are like paint by numbers in comparison. Maybe I shouldn't compare. We're not talking with non musicians. But the reality is that non musicians love great music and not the jibberish drumming. I'm done with this, I had to get it out. have fun practicing chops, while the rest of us get gigs.

read lang's modern drummer interview....these clinics he is doing are only "icing". his day job is being a top session guy....he showed me some of the records he had just recorded.....quite a cross-section.

hes doing these clinics to promote the hudson dvd and his signature products. like dave weckl is contacted to do a certain amount of clinics per year.

dont forget these guys get paid for these clinics....some are good money....it is there job.

Wow,
I can only say that I'm sorry you haven't yet had the oppertunity to see Thomas play music yet.

I have been so lucky. Thomas has taken me along to some of his gigs, the last of which was a party for every pop artist on the label 19 management (the people who do American Idol et al..) Now, love it or hate it, I'm sure we all by now realise the calibre of muscian it takes to hold those gigs together.

I sat behind Thomas' stool on the last gig with a pair of phones on, (listening to his mix of band and click) and saw the most breathtaking musican in him. No chops, no frills, just groove and the song in his mind. I'll always remember a last-minute re-arrangement of a tune Thomas did when the band realised they had to play for an artist to exit the stage. The small passage he came up with had form, character, paid homage to the original song, and grooooooved!!!

Within seconds, the band were again confident, and the artist knew know better. Job well done, and a total total pro. I only wish that all people could see this side of him. I know that all this 'industry' attention is simply for fun, honestly. The fact that he stretches the art is simply extra curicular...

You'd be a fool to discount Thomas' musical ability. Please re-watch the DVD and notice at the beginning of it how he emphasasises the fact that the "Sterile" excercises on his DVD are simply to make things easier and overall the aim is to make music... Maybe you missed that part???

MP

There happen to be ALOT of great musicians who have no interest in jazz, fusion or funk etc. My point is is that one style of music or one realm of performing is not SUPERIOR! Of course it is superior to those who like THAT way better. But that is SUBJECTIVE! And I agree with the others the point of instructional dvd's is to give you the TOOLS to make whatever music YOU LIKE! And there happen to be MANY guy's making more money than we will ever know doing ONE gig in one style of music.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 11, 2004 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Digital Man ]</font>

We all could take a lesson in replying to posts from Peter C...

"There happen to be ALOT of great musicians who have no interest in jazz, fusion or funk etc."

They might be good at what they do, but they're certainly not "great." For instance, Tommy Lee is a good rock drummer, but he's not a great drummer just because he can play rock well. In order to be "great," I think you also have to be well-rounded, like any professional should be.

So you cannot be a Great cook if you just cook French or Chinese? Or you cannot be a great engineer if you just focus on Civil engineering?
There is a difference between being a great well rounded drummer OR guitar player and being a great rock guitarist(Eddie V. or a Steve Vai) or a great Jazz drummer(Elvin Jones,Max Roach etc.)
just to name a few.

Dig

OK, look. This has long passed the point of becoming absurd.

"DUDES!"

A football team consists of many "stylistically specific" positions...no one on the team plays every position at once...otherwise, you'd only need one guy on the team. And similarly, in a band ensemble.

Some cats in music do INDEED cover many diff styles very well AW...some are specialists in 1 particular. Within that particular style, it doesnt make them any less convincing. Altho it IS a little odd to me that some of these guys may not swing like the best, it's relatively pointless to belittle them that fact.

The orig topic was simply commenting on Lang's technical prowess within his "genre" & one of his clinics, that's ALL. In a slightly humorous way. Even the topic title was [half] in jest.

What's up w all these folks who are insistent on pointing out how someone like Virg [or Lang] cannot swing? I personally have never heard him trying to prove himself to the naysayers on a strictly swing gig...prog/"art"-rock & fusion, yes...he is not trying to make a name for himself on jazziz.com's top 10 list of all-time swing players! So get over it already! SYI/OTV & PX ARE NOT SWING...It's NOT rocket science here, guys!

But not one swing nazi can ever say he cannot kick a** at what he does...THAT would be ludicrous. "Fan-boy?!" No. Stating the obvious? Absolutely. No delusions there. And it's not because it's Virgil either. If it were Joe Blow from Kokomo who happens to be an accomplished player at ANY or all style, I'd still be saying the SAME thing.

This is all devicive, divisional, opinionated bullsh** to me. Like Catholicism, Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterianism...it's all supposed to be the christian faith for crying out loud. Isnt there only ONE & the SAME bible for these folks?! Once people get their own self-serving BS ideologies out of the way, it reads THE SAME FOR ALL OF THEM. And the King Jms hasnt really changed in OVER 2000 YEARS [except by those who want to change it w their own ideologies - that includes many pulpits across the world!!]. Yet some jackamo will read something different than the next guy, & IT'S THE SAME WRITTEN PAGE! It's like the Hard L & R's national conventions...[I'm NOT talking about the answer to the ?, "what is swing" here, either!]

And I LOVE swing...true, authentic, tradition swing, to those who would question... [img]wink.gif[/img] It is INDEED a rich heritage. [OK, i'll mention names - Elvin, Philly Jo, Cobb, Art, Max, Haynes [there are many others], & on to Tain, Deej, Hamilton, Stewart, etc etc...what about Al Foster? He can swing, but he gets accused/"labeled" as being contemporary.

I also dig the he** outve the way Tony, Vinnie & Weckl play it [contemporarily], too!

"The language of swing is a deep tradition" - TRUE.
"...and hardly anyone that is mentioned on this board has it. Have respect for the guys that make that command that music today like Tain, Victor Lewis, Lewis Nash, Smitty Smith, Bill Stewart, and more. If you think these guys who make a living from blowing bullshit chops in front of ejaculating drum hobby-ists at clinics are creative, check out some of the above names, MAKING MUSIC, over a FORM! knowing the harmonic changes and relating to them in solo. Do you even know what that is?"

Altho you are right in what you said in & of itself, esp at the end there, that's still a pretty harsh tone, as was most of your post. Since youre taking it upon yourself to bring an unrequired attitude in here, & make this into more than this topic was directly intended to be, I'll go ahead & bring it back.

First of all, youre amiss here: for one, those guys you mentioned HAVE been spoken of & talked up/highly respected in here. ESP TAIN, STEWART...& Smitty & Nash. & ERSKO for another. And that VINNIE guy...NOoooo, we've NEVER talked up his musicality...& he "cant swing," At least by the "purist, traditionalist, or old-school" standards. Please.

Stylistic nazi-snobbery is unattractive. In ANY style. Total waste of time. The Negativity Factor. Much like responding to this topic. I know i do my share of typing [b4 it gets to that.] So TH what. It's 2004 for God's sake - that way of thinking is neanderathal at best. It went out w shag carpeting! And nobody's dissin' swing in here! Get your head out of the sand! Think outside "the box!" Be positive in your postings! Even when you are pointing out a seeming "deficiency." Delivery, attitude, & tone is 99% of the sales pitch!

Likewise, when some knucklehead will say something swings when it does not, there's always gonna be some knucklehead who has to point out what doesnt swing...ESP when it's not written or played to be swing.

Again - if you are a swing-snob & you are listening to Virg or Lang for it, you are indeed a knucklehead. & Virg & Lang could CARE LESS about your opin anyway, as they raise the f'n bar for all of us WITHIN THEIR STYLISTIC EXPERTISE. I shouldnt care enough to have waste the time to make this point either. Then why do it you ask? Because likewise, as some folk arent knowledgeable or experienced enough yet to understand the nature of swing, some people may be just a little too self-righteous.
[img]wink.gif[/img]

This isnt a Philly Jo post...it's a Thomas Lang post!

Weckl may not swing a la purist trad, but you certainly cant say that the guy cannot bring it if he wanted to lay down a musical solo...over the kicks/hits or otherwise. I've heard him start solos for a while w VERY sparse/spacey, musically well-placed notes...better than a lot of folks. And he can do it all day long if he wants, w/OUT all the "BS, masterbatory chops." And then he can bring the chops in to boot, too. He is capable of incredible phrasing, & often brings it.

And just because he puts out a lot of OTT suff that highlights the pinnacle of his ability, dont be so self-righteous as to say a guy like Virg CANT play a 'melodic or musically sparse or succint' solo over the hits [AOT 'blowing bullshit chops in front of ejaculating drum hobby-ists at clinics'], because he CAN! Why 'handcuff' the guy like that? Totally ridiculous. It simply IS what IT IS - but some peeps just cant seem to grasp the simplicity of that statement! And, guys like Vinnie, Weckl, & Virg can ALWAYS BACK DOWN the burners AOT someone who cant bring it.

There has to & is bound to be guys out there like VD & TL. Just as there was Elvin, Philly, Roy, Jimmy, Art, back to Max, & as ther is Tain, Deej, Stewart, & Hamilton...& say, Stv Jordan, who is a fine part & pocket player, & who can bring some if it's called for. Vega & Jeff P too.

Sometimes a specific type or piece of music may have a particular instrument at the forefront - or all of them. It's not worse than say Pelton or Jordan laying down a solid groovre...or Ersko or Abe Jr laying down a saucy one...just different. Another bag. Just because Weckl is doing his thing & Virg is doing his & both tend to bring it a lot ON THEIR OWN SOLO PROJECTS & THOSE THAT THEY ARE ASKED TO DO SO ON doesnt mean someone has to get all uptight & tightly wound about it, or threatened by it. No big deal! Let em be who they are, for Pete's sake! Theyve done plenty of "just pocket" & accompaniment music too. Weckl NOT musical when he brings his chops, or when he contemporarily swings?! I think not!! That cat is NOTHING BUT MUSICAL. I've never heard him play a f'n UNMUSICAL NOTE IN MY LIFE. EVEN WHEN HE'S BEING "BUSY" or BLOWIN' HIS CHOPS. And dont say it's "unmusical" because Weckl [or Virg] is "blowin' CHOPS [IN TIME]!!" That's just stupid talk. That may sound rude, but that's what it is. He can do BOTH [lay it solid & simple or rip your f'n head off]. He's an EXTREMELY musical player! Ersko & Anth Jackson wouldnt have raved about the guy to Chick if he wasnt!! Chick wouldve PASSED him OVER if he wasnt!! And he knows the galldarn melodic form too. "Yeah, he [whomever] is technically proficient, but he can't swing!" That's missing the WHOLE f'n point here, & REALLY annoying & closed-minded. Dont put music & players in a friggin box like private school uniforms [all the same]. Save that crap for socialism! What's all this lip service we hear about "tolerance?!"

Since when are we supposed to never "give the drummer some?" Or if we do, only swing players, over the form? Is it a crime for the drums to be at the forefront some of the time? Granted i agree that a solo within the form of a tune is the best way to approach it. But these guys can do it. Maybe not to your specifications, but there are plenty of people who dont mind. It's 2004. Miles & Coltrane were THERE. The big bands were THERE. THEY did IT. IT'S BEEN DONE. There's always going to be peeps who want to stay in a certain era or mindset - that's OK by me. And there may even still be an audience for it ;c). J/K But even Miles would ask you to your face why would you do it the SAME WAY IT'S ALEWAYS BEEN DONE [not talkig about 'not stayg w/in the form' here, just new & diff approaches & styles]. That's the beauty of music. ESP improvisatory, of which 'these guys we always mention' can also DO WELL.

If I had to listen to [pick a decade] swing every time I turned on the radio or player every day for an entire yr straight I'd pull my f'n hair out. Likewise, if i just listened to NOTHING buit pop or rock, I'd DO THE SAME. Classical, symph orch, blues, r&b, funk, soul, ska, reggae, calypso, latin, brazilian, african, even mid eastern...There's TOO MUCH going on OUT THERE for that.

Guys like VD, TL, MM's, are just exploring new & diff ways of approaching the instrument, within a specific stylistic genre. That's ALL. It in a nutshell. Being chopsy doesnt make it bad. So what that they sit down & think of endless ways to play the beats within a measure, or how many diff ways to play 'polyrythmically.' It's magnificent! - just as Elvin's swing is utterly magnificent! Ersko, Gadd, Vega, & Jeff's groove is utterly magnificent! Weckl soloing over the hits / form is magnificent! Vinnie busting his is magnificent! Altho I agree that in a piece of music it's not the point at all & shouldnt be, except in situations where called for. And those guys would agree w you ALSO. If everything & every stinkin' player on the planet played the SAME thing the SAME way it would be absurd. If every style of music NEVER called for the horn, gtr, drums, whatever to take a solo, then all you'd have is pop music as king...oh, wait a minute, it already IS. Sorry. ;c)

We need guys like Dazz. His approach to music is a mature one. But it doesnt somehow diminish in the wake of these other 2 types of guys. Dazz will always work. I dont think he worries that he wont work because he's not musically minded. There's other things in life to make one 'worry' about stuff like that.

Your preferred art form is not going to die because some kid of this moment in time is excited to get into the drums by Thomas f'n Lang. Or Virgil. These guys ARENT JAZZ SWING anyway. Theyre prog, "art," "epic" rock fusion. If your argument is w their STYLE, then that's another boring ballgame. Jazz didnt die because Elvis shook his a** on TV.

Jeez, even I wrote another bible here! Rant over.

It's NOT supposed to be a competition, people! Not even between STYLES.
Just diff flavors of ice cream; diff colors of the spectrum. You like what you like - & dont like what you dont...dont impose it on someone else. NOW do you get it? [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/whatever.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img]

Bring it. ;cP

[& remember - i TOO am but an insignificant, disembodied 'voice' at the other end of the "ether-waves!"] ;c) :cp

I guess I may have blown any chances for the "Peter C Honorable HOD-HB Award" here.../;c/

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 12, 2004 03:03 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

When are we going to realize that what is musical to one is not to another. I listen to "Tain Watts" or Tony Williams or Allan Holdsworth and my wife who is not musically illiterate, she is quite knowledgable think's that what she is hearing is pointless meandering dribble, whether it is the overall tune or the drumming specifically, to her it is void of any soul. Now I tend to have the same response towards her music of choice. And I have to catch myself and realize we are wound differently and that is fine. For some clinic's are very musical and Bozzio or Minneman wanking! [img]wink.gif[/img] by themselves as some would say is the ticket. For some it is not.

I can spend all day trying to explain to people why certain jazz or fusion or R&B guy's are MUSICAL to me but it does not connect with them. Put on some folk-country-rock and they are in musical heaven and they can sure TELL YOU WHY! The tunes, the vocals, the drumming the guitar playing it all works for them. That is possibly why we have this GREAT urge to label music in general, because we all obviously find noticeable differences with music and those differences are what makes some music and the playing in general ear candy for them and it is utter garbage for others. And that happens whether it is flying solo on a stage by yourself, or performing with artists or making a vid. I am not saying that there is not objective point's to be made there is but much of it is subjective. I have said before we can scrutinize technique and do it fairly objectively to a great degree but when it comes to people making music than subjectivity comes into play in a very LARGE way.

Dig